2017/2018 Management Discussion | NEW MOD WARNING IN OP AS OF 5/20/18

Discussion in 'Vancouver Canucks' started by Catamarca Livin, Jan 4, 2018.

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  1. Peter10

    Peter10 Registered User

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    Since the focus has shifted to that awesome performance Benning showed during the 2014 draft, here is what he had to say about it just before the draft:

    Canucks’ Benning fixed to pick sixth, but all the talk’s about Kesler

     
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  2. MadaCanuckle

    MadaCanuckle Registered User

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  3. Pavel96

    Pavel96 Registered User

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    I think that's a warped interpretation of things. For starters, in my world a pro team's prospects lack of success would never evoke depressive feelings.

    I never used the term '4th liner' in my post - not sure where that came from.

    I never said Tryamakin wasn't an NHL player and other than him casually saying 'sure why not go back' what plans do the canucks actually have to bring him back? Didn't he say the day before he bolted his focus was on the Canucks next year? Why if he comes back is it a fact that management had no role in him leaving previous? As well I never said they "chased him off" - you really warped the word "prevent" into "chasing" I guess? He's not the first or last player to bolt? Great who cares? Their job is to select players that can make an impact for their team - not someone who may be prone to bolting and then saying whoops not our fault.

    Demko was drafted 4 years ago and still hasn't played a pro game. While for a goalie that may be a wise choice, assuming he's playing well and progressing how could he not be one of the best prospects still left? He's likely one of the oldest - and a lot of great players drafted after him are no longer prospects but have made it to the NHL. To refresh - all I said about him was : Great let's see what he does in the pros. So to date - he's been great, now let's see what he can do in the pros - is that not a fair statement our should we just hang out hat on the top prospect not in the NHL proclamation you made.

    Now you warp my entire post into a bizarrely weird and negative comparison by saying my viewpoints are tied to "King" Jong -un. Completely unnecessary and I don't even see the connection. Why don't you explain what you mean next time in hockey terms instead of throwing a lazy insult like that? With how many people have died under his regime etc - to even bring him up on this froum in comparison to a game is bizarre and uncalled for - and an insult to all of the people that have suffered there. Please stop with stuff like that.

    And FYI when Carolina drafted Fleury they were filling their organization's positional need. Francis needed to restock the team's defensive depth and bypassed the BPA for a positional need. Hmmm. Doesn't that sound familiar - like in 2016 when Benning did the exact same thing. In that case the team that selected after us did take the BPA and oh look at what happened. Not sure why pointint to someone else's obvious mistake is a pass for Jim's. If anything he should have reassessed what he and his staff had done wrong at that draft and possibly noticed Carolina's mistake and learned from it. But nope, they made the exact same blunder 2 years later.

    To summarize - my main point previously was that Boeser, single handily, would be worth more than this entire group. How could he not be worth more? How is that even depressing as he was selected the following year?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  4. coldsteel79

    coldsteel79 Registered User

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    So Benning’s quote directly says he made picks “in some instances” so more than a couple. What’s he supposed to say, yeah the amateur scouting group sucked ass? Great way to establish a good working environment.
     
  5. Peter10

    Peter10 Registered User

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    No he didnt say he made picks. What he said is that the took out some players from the list but they didnt fit in his profile.
     
  6. coldsteel79

    coldsteel79 Registered User

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    Where do you see him saying that? I see him saying “this is the type of player we win with”, hint hint we’re picking him.
     
  7. Pastor Of Muppetz

    Pastor Of Muppetz Registered User

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    Goldoblin was not at all ready to play in the NHL out of camp last year...It was completely obvious to everyone (except to you)...Ben Hutton had a terrible year,and he wasn't even blocked by other players,he found the press box on his own.

    Gudbranson did not block Tryamkin...in the 2016-17 season Guddy only played 30 games

    Benning has had an overall deficit of one 2nd,4th,5th,6th and is on the positive side of the ledger with a 1st and a 7th...(one of the 2nds the Canucks had coming back the other way was the freebie for Torts).....Overall,hardly crippling.

    The Benning extension means nothing..?..Okey Dokey
     
  8. Pastor Of Muppetz

    Pastor Of Muppetz Registered User

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    You said in your initial post that Virtanen 'maybe could be a third liner'..So couldn't one assume that he is currently viewed as 4th liner in your view..?

    How are GM's to know that a Russian player will bolt back to Russia..?...Its literally a chance you take.. (Gillis didn't have anything to do Russians,and it was JB who lifted the Canucks ban on drafting Russians)....You say management failed for drafting someone who might bolt.?...I disagree,I think it was a fantastic 3rd round pick ...and I'm certain he will be back in a year or two.(edit..his agent and the Canucks are now discussing Tryamkins return)

    Demko hasn't played a pro game..?...False.

    Bob McKenzies Final Draft Rankings (this ranking is not an opinion ..It is taken off the list of 10 NHL scouts before the draft,giving you an idea of the order the players will be picked)


    1 - Aaron Ekblad, Barrie - OHL
    2 - Sam Reinhart, Kootenay - WHL
    3 - Sam Bennett, Kingston - OHL
    4 - Leon Draisaitl, Prince Albert - WHL
    5 - Michael Dal Colle, Oshawa - OHL
    6 - Nick Ritchie, Peterborough - OHL
    7- Jake Virtanen, Calgary - WHL
    8 - Hayden Fleury, Red Deer - WHL
    9 - William Nylander - Modo - SwedishL
    10 - Nikolaj Ehlers - Halifax - QMJHL
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  9. Pastor Of Muppetz

    Pastor Of Muppetz Registered User

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    Then in the next draft 2015 ..He drafts Calder finalist Brock Boeser,Adam Gaudette and Lukas Jasek...?
     
  10. Pavel96

    Pavel96 Registered User

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    I'm sorry, it's becoming a waste of time to respond as you are cherry picking what you address.

    Do you think Virtanen can still progress into a regular second line player? If not he looks like he'll be lucky to have a long successful career as a solid third line player.

    For Trymakin- again what about the lack of responsibility management played in not creating an environment to help him succeed here more. That's quality asset management, not oh well he isn't our type of player. To simply say you are certain he will be back means nothing to anyone but yourself.

    With Demko I accidentally was referring to 'pro's' as the NHL, which I referenced him not making, later in that post. Was fairly obvious the implication I was making but if you want to bypass the points and focus on one word like that- its obviously a waste of time.

    You post Bob Mackenzies rankings as if they are some proclamation? Here, I did a little bit more research:

    2014 NHL Draft Prospect Rankings

    12 lists are up there. Bob Mackenzie is one of them. Out of the twelve he is the only one on that list that has both Nylander and Ehlers behind Fleury. Literally 10 other lists ALL have Nylander and Ehlers ahead of Fleury. 1 list has Fleury in the middle. This is the most ridiculous example you could have posted.

    And again - why won't you address the Boeser comment. Would you rather have Demko, Virtanen, and the rights to Tryamkin - or Boeser?
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  11. Pastor Of Muppetz

    Pastor Of Muppetz Registered User

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    Yes..I think that Jake Virtanen could be a 2nd line player (and could even be in the top 6,Tom Wilson of the Caps was on the 1st line)..We were just starting to see him breakout at the end of last season.

    Read todays news on Tryamkin...His agent and the Canucks are discussing his return...You were claiming that management showed a lack of responsibility in drafting a guy who can bolt..Now your moving the goalposts and talking about the management didn't create the right atmosphere for him?


    Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports 35m35 minutes ago

    Nikita Tryamkin's agent Todd Diamond on SN 650, "I spoke at the NHL Combine with the #Canucks about Nikita and how we can approach it and maybe get ahead of it so everyone knows he is a valued person on the depth chart."

    Diamond says everyone should be prepared fort Tryamkin to come back to Vancouver in 2 years, "is there is a chance it could be sooner, it's a small chance."

    "Demko was drafted 4 years ago and still has not played a pro game"...you said it.?..I wasn't twisting your words at all..If anybody read that,they would assume the same thing I did.

    Bob McK draft rankings are pretty much a proclamation of how the top 10 will play out (again,its not Bobs opinion ,its a consensus of the lists of 10 NHL scouts prior to the draft)...and that is the way it more or less did play out..did it not.?...Not ridiculous at all.

    Currently Boeser would have more value than the combined players,but that could easily change in a year or two..Very few goalies step out of college/junior and go straight into the NHL...Demko,Virtanen and Tryamkin could be key players for the Canucks moving forward.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  12. Pavel96

    Pavel96 Registered User

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    You continue to distort things. Initially I said this about Tryamkin:

    Tryamkin - was excited for the player and then he left. to say management didn't play a role in not preventing that..... well isn't that part of their job? Otherwise why pick the player int he first place?

    Not sure how that's moving goalposts lol. They were there all along.

    "everyone should be prepared" again not sure what that is worth. Here is a quote, directly from the player himself, in May, "“I will think [of returning to the NHL] when my current contract with Avtomobilist ends, if I will be needed there, if I prove my game, that they would like to offer me a contract,” said Tryamkin in a Russian-language interview last month. “I’m not closing the page with the NHL, but it’s not 100 percent.”

    It's not 100%. lol. And "if I will be needed there" - the fact he is even saying that likely shows he did not feel valued by the organization or at least questions his value to them.

    I clearly stated about demko 2 sentences after the one you quoted: "He's likely one of the oldest - and a lot of great players drafted after him are no longer prospects but have made it to the NHL." I never said you twisted my words (that in itself is twisting my words lol) I stated that you focused on one word "pro" and ignored the rest of the paragraph when I clearly had a line in it referencing him not having made the NHL.

    So if Bob's rankings are how they will play out what does it prove - besides my point? That Francis was going to reach for an organizational need and people knew this. What a shrewd example of a GMing to compare to Benning. They seem to be cut from the same cloth when it comes to some management decisions.

    So if currently Boeser is worth more than whatever is left from the 2014 draft - why even bring up the 2014 as an example of a great draft for Benning? He completely dismantled the assets from that draft getting pennies on the dollar. It feels like such a silly example to bring up. We can say - oh boy NHL games played. But if he's already moved half of the draft class within a few years for nothing - what can you say lol. When you think he had 2 first round picks one at 6, and most of his others, and all that is left isn't even worth one 1st round pick at 23rd overall. It seems like a showcase for his failure as a GM.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  13. Pastor Of Muppetz

    Pastor Of Muppetz Registered User

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    I don't even have a clue what you're talking about?....You said "managements job is to pick someone who is not prone to bolting"....How do you do that?..Not pick Russians?.So should we have passed on him?.and then you veered off... into "management should have created an environment to help him succeed?.By the end of the season,he had regular shift,and he knew idiot Willie was getting fired...Sounds to me like you're just making up stuff as we go along.

    Your referencing quotes Tryamkin made in May..well its now June,and its obviously been ramped up to the point where his agent has now basically confirmed him coming back.

    Even by the time Toronto got to their pick in 2014,it wasn't a slam dunk they were even going to pick Nylander...The fact is,is that Virtanen was picked precisely where he was supposed to be...Amazing how Bob Mck final top 10 draft rankings go almost note for note.

    While Boeser might 'currently' be worth more than Demko,Virtanen and Tryamkin..that can change in a hurry..Its idiotic to start classifying 21-22 year olds as wins and losses when they're still in the development stages of their career...What we do know is that Benning drafted 5 players that are conceivably NHL players..and yet there is still peeps on here that are upset about it..Go figure?
     
  14. Ryp37

    Ryp37 Registered User

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    Who cares that Carolina picked fleury lmao

    No one here was clamouring for fleury

    Ridiculous
     
  15. MS

    MS 1%er

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    Eric Crawford drafted most of those guys, in Benning's own words. Other than Virtanen who he overruled the scouts on.

    Like, for the umpteenth time, Benning didn't even know what league Tryamkin was playing in when we drafted him.

    And calling guys who have played 1 or 5 NHL games 'NHL players' is a bit rich. Did Gillis draft 4 NHLers in 2011, then?
     
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  16. Pavel96

    Pavel96 Registered User

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    If management picks a player and the player leaves for another league - you can't give management a pass for that lol. It's a waste and management is responsible at the end of the day. And this group wastes a lot of assets. And from the sounds of it Tryamkin wasn't even Bennings guy, but he left under Benning's management. It's management/ the scouting department's job to figure out if the player they are picking has NHL potential. Part of that is a desire to even play in the NHL. Aren't their interviews etc? And then if there is a player that may have potential to bolt, and you want to pick him, you should seemingly try your best to encourage him to stay here - not play games with him by going back on your word (and trying to send him to AHL) and obviously losing him in part by doing silly things like the apparent Chris pronger stuff. It seems like horrible asset management once again.

    The quotes were from less than a month ago and right out of his mouth. Not a media savvy agent playing both sides lol.

    It's not amazing - lol. Bob Mackenzie obviously has good insider information and had a great feel for where teams would be picking. That doesn't prove at all that Fleury was the prospect that was the consensus best player available. He was who an insider thought would be picked based on positional need. Who cares at all about this silly point lol?

    So you can say its "idiotic" (uncalled for lol) to classify 21-22 y olds as wins and losses (again not sure where I did that I was comparing the market value of one group of players as compared to another - today, because that's what day it is and we are talking about this lol) but I am not sure what you are doing then classifying a draft class as the best ever when it's made up players of that age range.

    Who is upset that Benning drafted "5 NHL" players? it's the silly way things have been worded and proclaimed in reference to the last GM here that is being called out.
     
  17. MS

    MS 1%er

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    The notion that someone bad enough at pro scouting to acquire :

    Luca Sbisa
    Matt Bartkowski
    Adam Clendening
    Andrey Pedan
    Erik Gudbranson
    Philip Larsen
    Michael Del Zotto
    Derrick Pouliot

    ... as a complete list of defenders in 5 years on the job is at the same time a savant making great draft picks from the USHL and KHL of guys he couldn't even really have ever seen play given the demands of his job remains the most ludicrous thing posted on this board.

    Jim Benning is a bad scout and a bad judge of talent. At every level. Our scouting will improve at every level when he is gone.
     
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  18. geebaan

    geebaan 7th round busted

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    I don't know if I agree he is a bad scout, or even if he is, he promoted guys like Brackett and such, but that list is atrocious and he should be let go for that alone.
     
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  19. cookiefest

    cookiefest nothing matters anyway.

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    I cannot wait for this Canucks offseason, god it's going to suck ass.
     
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  20. cookiefest

    cookiefest nothing matters anyway.

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    Amazing that Dan Hamhuis was let go by Benning and yet he's still better than any defenseman Benning has acquired.
     
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  21. vancityluongo

    vancityluongo Twin Benning Sponsor

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    Astroturfing allegations here suddenly a little more credible...

    Edit: Sorry didn't realize it would embed, but it's worth the read.

     
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  22. cookiefest

    cookiefest nothing matters anyway.

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    Weird thing about that account is he seemingly never actually tweets, it's all just replies of him vehemently defending the team even in an off the rails season. That might be the giveaway.

    This might be my favourite

    [​IMG]

    Going through all of his tweets is pure comedy.
    [​IMG]
     
  23. Melvin

    Melvin Abaddon Sponsor

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    I don't get why it doesn't seem to occur to people that part of the reason tryamkin was still available to be selected is the risk of the exact scenario that ended up playing out.

    Having said that, it was a still a good pick.

    We will see if our front office does it again though. They are dumb enough to overreact to it for future selections.
     
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  24. ProstheticConscience

    ProstheticConscience Be gentle

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    Time is a thing. And some GMs manage the amazing feat of trading for players who can make their NHL team better.
     
  25. MS

    MS 1%er

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    It's gonna bad. Only question is if it'll be 2016 bad or just 2015 bad.
     
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