Proposal: Toronto/Columbus

Discussion in 'Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk' started by meefer, Jun 11, 2018.

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  1. stevo61

    stevo61 Registered User

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    player on worse defense plays higher in the lineup. shocking
    Savard also starts more in the defensive zone. Gardiner would be on the 3rd pair and Savard is much more needed for things like the pk
     
  2. CantLoseWithMatthews

    CantLoseWithMatthews Registered User

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    so Gardiner provided triple the offense, but Savard starts more in the defensive zone and is part of a godawful PK. yeah I wonder who's more valuable
     
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  3. stevo61

    stevo61 Registered User

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    To Columbus sure. Why would they want another offensive guy, plus you can take away a lot of that offense as his minutes would be cut and PP minutes drastically cut
     
  4. CantLoseWithMatthews

    CantLoseWithMatthews Registered User

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    I would understand this is Savard was actually much better defensively, but he really isn't. Gardiner and Savard both allow chances/goals at a pretty similar rate, but Gardiner is just better offensively and in transition. You could always use more offense anyway. Gardiner is at his best when he's not relied upon to be a defensive rock, which he wouldn't be on Columbus
     
  5. stevo61

    stevo61 Registered User

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    Gardiner is also a UFA soon, he will be one of those guys who gets paid too much for points. Columbus has too many big contracts ending soon so either there will be a big crunch and someone may be squeezed out or Gardiner walks in a year and there is nothing to show for the assests. The team would likely want some certainty on the blue line until guys like Kukan, Gavrikov or Carlsson show they can step in and make a difference full time
     
  6. meefer

    meefer Registered User

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    I screwed up. I'd thought Gard's had two years remaining to Savard's 3. However, checking more closely, Jake's contract is up after this coming season. The signed 1:3 vs 2:3 changes my opinion of my OP as I don't know about Columbus's ability to resign Gardiner after next season. At this point I'd have to say the Leaf's would need to add to the initial proposal, the question being, how much?
     
  7. thebus88

    thebus88 Pray 4 DA CBJ

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    I don't think there's gonna be anybody to be able talk you into believing that Savard is better defensively since you clearly base much of your opinion on the "advanced stats" (tougher comp and chances/goal "rate").

    Gardiner would be at best, the teams 3rd best offensive defenseman. So he wouldn't be "relied upon" offensively. You also say he's best when not relied upon to be a defensive rock. I know it doesn't go along with your "tougher competition" mathematics, but Savard is absolutely "relied upon" defensively for the CBJ. After Jones, he and Murray are the other 2 guys put out in defensive situations and/or against "tougher competition".

    Enjoy and keep Gardiner. If he's so good offensively AND defensively, people shouldn't be looking to move him at all. Especially not for 2 Redundanteers in Savard and Jenner.
     
  8. CantLoseWithMatthews

    CantLoseWithMatthews Registered User

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    I don't think how many goals against they are on the ice for is too advanced, but i'll stick to using stats and evidence to shape my opinions and you can use whatever it is you do. I don't think Gardiner is that great defensively, but neither is Savard. The only reason I'd be looking to move Gardiner is his contract is almost up and the Leafs are probably gonna go with Rielly-Dermott as their top two LHD. I'd much rather keep him over move him for Savard, believe me.
     
  9. thebus88

    thebus88 Pray 4 DA CBJ

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    The amount of goals against (or "rate" of goals/chances against) does become a little "advanced" when guys are on completely different teams, and used mainly in completely different on-ice situations.

    You claimed that Gardiner "faces tougher competition" and that they allow chances at a pretty similar "rate". I'm 100% certain this "evidence" is based upon a dork and a calculator. AKA "advanced stats". You also claim that Gardiner is "best when he's not relied upon to be a defensive rock". The problem is that Savard IS "at his best" when relied upon in a defensive role. The "evidence", "advanced stats", and the opinions that you've expressed on the 2 players, contradict each other.

    A few other CBJ fans have also expressed pretty simply why this doesn't work for the CBJ. Nobody is really "attacking" Gardiner, just claiming that the team is well better off with a BETTER defensive/tougher guy back on D. Something (Savard BETTER defensively) not even you disagree with. But, you seem to feel the need to belittle how good Savard is (both defensively AND offensively) to justify why the CBJ should/would make this deal, or why people expressing "pro Savard" opinions are wrong in some way.


    The "eye test" my man. Its a lot better "evidence" than a dork doing division on a calculator.
     
  10. CantLoseWithMatthews

    CantLoseWithMatthews Registered User

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    of course it is. it lets you always be right while denying real evidence to the contrary
     
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  11. thebus88

    thebus88 Pray 4 DA CBJ

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    Ditto. Expected response

    I also value other peoples actual analysis on here more so than people posting numbers, or sharing their "opinions" or "evidence" based primarily on these said numbers/"advanced statistics".

    But knowing nothing about Johnsson other than his hockeydb numbers, something around him and Jenner could make sense.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  12. Viqsi

    Viqsi chief justice, HFCBJ morality court

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    Handedness? I'm talking about positional ability. We're quite familiar with the concept of off-hand play - one of our RDs, Nutivaara, is a left-handed shot. We're also familiar with the fact that not everyone can actually do that - Murray is pretty hopeless at it, for example. Gardiner has primarily played LD, and I haven't seen him at RD, and I'm not about to just assume that he'd be "just fine" at RD. That's not "additional value", that's additional risk.
     
  13. CantLoseWithMatthews

    CantLoseWithMatthews Registered User

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    at least you didn't expect to be taken seriously after that opinion on using any kind of numbers as evidence
     
  14. WubbaLubbaDubDub

    WubbaLubbaDubDub And that's why I always say, Shumshumschilpiddydah

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    We have Werenski and Jones who are both capable of 50+ pts, and Nuttivara who was running finlands PP. We don't need anymore offensive minded dmen.
     
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  15. Notsince67

    Notsince67 Papi and the Lamplighters

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    Savard is a lot more sheltered than Gardiner. Gardiner plays the tough minutes and scores a bunch too
     
  16. stevo61

    stevo61 Registered User

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    well he gives it to skilled forwards and they score. He scored 5 goals which would have been tied for 4th on Columbus
     
  17. OmniCube

    OmniCube Registered User

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    Columbus would have to add? With only one year left on Gardiner's contract? We'd have to add, not them.
     
  18. CantLoseWithMatthews

    CantLoseWithMatthews Registered User

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    we're not adding to a 50 point defenseman for a 16 point defenseman, lol. Gardiner is far better
     
  19. Notsince67

    Notsince67 Papi and the Lamplighters

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    I think he is decent. Wouldn't say he is better though. Maybe he could handle the tougher completion but he just isn't used that way so there is no evidence
     
  20. Double-Shift Lasse

    Double-Shift Lasse Just post better

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    From Columbus' perspective, it doesn't matter whether Gardiner is better than Savard, it matters that Gardiner doesn't make the Jackets' roster better. That he MIGHT be able to handle the defensive role that Savard does or that he MIGHT be able to play RD don't really change that much.

    And since it doesn't appear Leafs fans want Savard all that badly anyway, it all seems like a poor trade discussion.
     
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  21. stevo61

    stevo61 Registered User

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    The previous season he got all the tough matchups. This year things changed as Johnson drug him down chasing a contract and Jones-Werenski were ready to be more all situation defenders and Murray is just better but also works better with Nutivaara. Not sure what the fancy stats look like after the TDL but when Cole came in and didnt try to play above his head they both looked much better
     
  22. KeonHorton

    KeonHorton Registered User

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    Not sure if Savard and Jenner are the right targets for the Leafs.
     
  23. Viqsi

    Viqsi chief justice, HFCBJ morality court

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    Seriously, that World Championships seems to have helped a lot. "Damn, that guy looks good. Who is that? ...Nutivaara? That's the Nutivaara guy the Jackets fans kept raving about? Well, ****, there goes my ability to complain that they're overrating people."
     
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  24. mikeyp24

    mikeyp24 Registered User

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    How is he sheltered? He played the tough D matchups while Z and Jones played in the offensive zone. His partners were JJ and Nuti... so who sheltered him the recent 7th rounder or JJ who TOR fans have shat all over the past season or so in threads about him...
     
  25. Notsince67

    Notsince67 Papi and the Lamplighters

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    Advanced stats tell a different story. He is ranked 129th among NHL defensemen for Quality of Competition ES. Saying that he gets tough minutes isn't even close to true.
     

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